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Post Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:42 pm    Post subject: PFAS - The Facts

This thread will be dedicated to the unfolding PFAS saga.

PFAS (or PFOS) is a firefighting chemical used at Tindal RAAF Base near Katherine, about 350km south of Darwin.

Defence test results and dietary intake guidance follows.

Defence is not releasing full NT test results until April 2018.

Meanwhile, signs have been put up telling people not to eat fish from the Katherine River.

There are many issues surrounding this, not least the fact that these fish will be going down the river to the nets in Anson Bay. Will they then be safe for sale?

The Roper is fed by the Tindal aquifer, is it affected?

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Post Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:07 pm    Post subject: Re: PFAS - The Facts

i heard the RAAF spokesman today say words to the effect that you would have to swim in the river and drink a cupful of water everyday of your life for it to have any effect.

he said it wasnt able to be absorbed by skin contact alone so why mention people swimming?
and why not just say anyone drinking more than a cupful of water everyday would be affected?.

sounded very much like a politician speaking.

most people drink more than 500ml everyday.


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Post Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:23 pm    Post subject: Re: PFAS - The Facts

The PFAS in question is likely this one ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfluoro ... fonic_acid

Health effects are described.

Here's a good example of PFOS pollution, the government's response to pollution was - incredibly - to raise the "safe" level ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buncefield_fire

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Post Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:25 pm    Post subject: Re: PFAS - The Facts

Lawyers meeting re class action ... https://www.shine.com.au/service/class- ... amination/

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Post Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:38 am    Post subject: Re: PFAS - The Facts

Here's the reply and data from Defence ...

***
STARTS
Defence has developed an Interim Human Health Risk Assessment (IHHRA) to evaluate potential PFAS exposure risks that may present to people living within the RAAF Base Tindal investigation area. Defence has been working closely with the Northern Territory Government throughout the investigation and will continue to do so.

Samples collected from water, soil, plants, fish and animal products were used to inform the IHHRA. Most of the samples were collected during the dry season and further sampling will be conducted during the wet season. Defence will release a final HHRA which will look at potential PFAS exposures in greater detail.
A summary of the fish samples, by fish type, and results used to compile the advice is shown below. The Food Standards Australia New Zealand (FSANZ) trigger value for fish is 5.2 ug/kg.

FSANZ trigger values are the maximum concentration level of chemicals that could be present in foods so even high consumers of these foods would not exceed the relevant tolerable daily intake (TDI).

FSANZ trigger values can be used by State and Territory authorities with food advisory accountabilities when undertaking further analysis of PFAS in foods to identify when levels in foods exceed these values and require more research.

Species n samples (individuals) Range of PFOS+PFHxS concentrations in flesh (ug/kg)
Barramundi 12 12 - 42
Powertail 9 (13) 6.2 - 35
Archerfish 3 (5) 19 - 130
Bony Bream 5 76 - 190
Grunters 13 9.5 – 120
Mullet 7 48 - 350
Cod 4 32 - 88
Spangled Perch 3 (11) 110 - 160

The detailed information regarding results fish types, sizes and locations taken will be included in the Detailed Site Investigation Report and the Interim Human Health Risk Assessment (details of these reports are contained later in this response).

Samples of fish from potentially affected areas will continue to be taken and analysed in December 2017.

These samples will be used to fill data gaps in the investigation and contribute to a better understanding of the interim findings.

The IHHRA is currently being reviewed by relevant Territory agencies and is expected to be finalised and released to the public in the coming weeks.

Defence is committed to providing the community with prompt advice on the progress and findings of the investigation. In order to keep the community informed, Defence presented the key findings of the IHHRA at a community walk-in session in Katherine on 04 December 2017. A factsheet outlining these findings is available on the Defence Tindal PFAS investigation website.

ENDS
****

So mullet are most contaminated. Surprisingly, no data on cherabin.

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Post Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:07 pm    Post subject: Re: PFAS - The Facts

Here's the EPA analysis of 3M's data on PFAs, they found high toxicity, persistence and acummulation and even rare "second generation" effects in animals ... http://www.chemicalindustryarchives.org ... pdf#page=2

3M's own monkey study ... http://www.chemicalindustryarchives.org ... pdf#page=1

Re PFAs (PFOA) interesting about "Teflon flu" ... http://www.abc.net.au/health/thepulse/s ... 576391.htm

Think I'll cook with stainless or iron from now on ...

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Post Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 3:53 pm    Post subject: Re: PFAS - The Facts

I bet the report didnt use the word 'powertail' :twisted: maybe cat fish


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Post Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 5:52 pm    Post subject: Re: PFAS - The Facts

Teflon Flu? I did hear about 20 years ago that the teflon fry pan could kill your pet budgie or any pet bird in close proximity (without throwing the pan at the bird) when cooking due to apparent fumes that only affected birds! It's like the aluminium pots all over but I forgot how that story went.

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Post Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 3:09 pm    Post subject: Re: PFAS - The Facts

The Commonwealth Department of Health has established "health based guidance values" in the form of a Tolerable Daily Intake (TDI) for PFOS/PFHxS and PFOA. These values are based on a review of the scientific evidence by Food Standards Australia and New Zealand (FSANZ).

Toxicity reference value PFOS/PFHxS PFOA
Tolerable Daily Intake (μg/kg/d)​​ ​0.02 0.16
Drinking Water Quality Guideline (μg/L) ​0.07 ​0.56
Recreational Water Quality Guideline (μg/L) ​0.7 ​5.6

You can compare this with the figures above for flesh samples and determine for yourself whether you feel the fish are safe to eat, keeping in mind you probably eat 100g to 200g in a serve. Or maybe more.

Other variables to consider are how much PFOS you already have in you and how much you are getting in your existing diet.

Defence PFOS page for Tindal here ... http://www.defence.gov.au/environment/pfas/Tindal/

News story here from 2016 ... http://www.news.com.au/technology/envir ... a7e9596a3c

Defence pushes the line on their web page that there is little evidence of harm in humans despite animal studies showing serious harm. However Defence's actions and the actions of 3M and the US EPA etc show the great level of concern.

Senate inquiry page ... https://www.aph.gov.au/Parliamentary_Bu ... facilities

In southern states, where commercial fishermen have been affected, there are recommendations for compensation. Will this happen with the recreational/tourism industry, as many recs eat fish ... http://www.defence.gov.au/id/_Master/do ... nquiry.pdf

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Post Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:45 pm    Post subject: Re: PFAS - The Facts

Interesting report on PFOA ... https://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/10/maga ... tmare.html

Note the Madrid Statement.

Got to keep it in perspective though, there are carcinogens in overcooked meat, smoke etc.

Good to keep them to a minimum tho ...

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Post Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:53 pm    Post subject: Re: PFAS - The Facts

Here's a summary of the data above so people can make their own decisions about what is safe to eat.

The Commonwealth Department of Health has established "health based guidance values" in the form of a Tolerable Daily Intake (TDI) for PFOS/PFHxS and PFOA. These values are based on a review of the scientific evidence by Food Standards Australia and New Zealand (FSANZ).

Toxicity reference value PFOS/PFHxS PFOA
Tolerable Daily Intake (μg/kg/d)​​ ​0.02 0.16
Drinking Water Quality Guideline (μg/L) ​0.07 ​0.56
Recreational Water Quality Guideline (μg/L) ​0.7 ​5.6

The Food Standards Australia New Zealand (FSANZ) trigger value for fish is 5.2 ug/kg. FSANZ trigger values are the maximum concentration level of chemicals that could be present in foods so even high consumers of these foods would not exceed the relevant tolerable daily intake (TDI).

The Katherine River sampling ...

Species n samples (individuals) Range of PFOS+PFHxS concentrations in flesh (ug/kg)
Barramundi 12 12 - 42
Powertail 9 (13) 6.2 - 35
Archerfish 3 (5) 19 - 130
Bony Bream 5 76 - 190
Grunters 13 9.5 – 120
Mullet 7 48 - 350
Cod 4 32 - 88
Spangled Perch 3 (11) 110 - 160

As said before, you can examine the data for flesh samples and determine for yourself whether you feel the fish are safe to eat, keeping in mind you probably eat 100g to 200g in a serve. Or maybe more.

PFAS have also been found at significant levels in Ludmilla and Rapid Creeks but I have no data on the fish tested there.

Defence says on its web page there is no evidence of harm to humans ... http://www.defence.gov.au/environment/p ... aqs.asp#Q4

I guess it depends who you ask. Make of it all what you will.

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Post Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:59 am    Post subject: Re: PFAS - The Facts

Cherabin data from Defence, two were tested ...


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Post Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:16 am    Post subject: Re: PFAS - The Facts

Interesting to see the developments


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Post Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:34 pm    Post subject: Re: PFAS - The Facts

Certainly encouraging that they went to a lot of effort re cherabin - 2 test samples ffs.
I am not so much concerned re my health aged 55 , whilst many think that's young , our age group has heaps of other health issues . But kids born in Katherine and spent a lot of the younger years drinking , swimming and getting sprayed with the pfas at the publicly supported events it is definitely a concern and must be noted for future related health issues


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Post Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 11:36 pm    Post subject: Re: PFAS - The Facts

My family and I have spent a total of 8 years at RAAF Base in Tindal (Katherine) and 4 years at RAAF Base Williamtown (Newcastle), both areas known for PFAS; so I'm pretty confident that we have been exposed to PFAS during this 12 year period. We haven't as of yet, but will be getting blood tests to see what levels, if at all, my families blood results return.

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