The effects of fluorescent orange... and contrast ?

ronje
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Re: The effects of fluorescent orange... and contrast ?

Post by ronje »

Some times you just wanted to give your self an upper cut for even thinking it was possible to understand what was happening but there was a definate pattern happening
Hello Cuddles. How've you been?

Maybe I'd have been better off giving myself that uppercut, Cuddles 'cos it sure has been some journey trying to put some sense into the subject of lures.

We ALL have a knowledge base usually based on experience. Trying to work backwards from what works is sure difficult. Usually that means following one theory after another until the trail runs cold or proves inconclusive. Then we're no further advanced. One theory is as good as another no matter what experience its based on.

My aim was to reduce the theory field by figuring out the technical things and using THEM as the yardstick for theories. Give the theories some basis in fact (so to speak).

We all have a experience base. I'm trying to complement that by give us more of a knowledge base so that some of the theories can be discarded. Change the balance towards knowledge a bit. And there some doozie theories that have been turned into "gospel" by influential people within fishing circles. Some have lasted for years.

The standout in the line of bulldust has been the depth penetration of different colours in water. Everybody (including me for a while) simply accepted what was being pedalled as fact based on experience. I have this view on life that perception if left unchallenged becomes fact. So I basically check out "facts".

What I've found is that a lot of these "facts" are simply unchallenged perceptions that have been repeated over and over mostly with a view that in the credibility stakes its better to be confidently wrong rather than be hesitantly correct.

To me a barra is a fish whose aim is survival. The prime driver is food and it has developed sophisticated tools over a long long time to achieve that. Look at how barramundi vision has evolved (with its party trick eyes) to help it see food in the environment in which it lives. Similarly its developed tools that sense movement in the water (potential food) and hearing tools which maybe double up as atmospheric pressure change tools.

I believe that all I've done with this stuff to date is slightly open the door into the "knowledge room". Its sure been a learning experience.

Your examples of changing conditions clearly demonstrate just how observant and alert someone should be to what's changing around them and the need to improvise.

If I can just say that it took a lot of ferreting to come to grips with light and colours underwater. Mainly because of the amount of misinformation and misunderstanding "out there" particularly in the fishing world.

ALL of the stuff I've written (and there's a lot in the knowledge base for people who want to look) can be condensed down into the attached spreadsheet.

The accompanying advice to put it into effect?

Look at the water around you and Follow the X.
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Ronje
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Re: The effects of fluorescent orange... and contrast ?

Post by Matt Flynn »

and probably the biggest thing fish density
Have to agree, stupid fish are much easier to catch :catch:
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Re: The effects of fluorescent orange... and contrast ?

Post by cuddlescooper »

Hi Ronje, ive been travelling well. (Hopefully you have also)...Just staying out of trouble....you know me! Lol

I hope we never really work fish out as it would be a boring sport. In fact i believe they should ban modern sounders as the fish now have no where to hide and all of the spawning agrigations are coming under such intense pressure. Before there was an amount of luck and a lot of time on the water to find fish. Occasionally the fish didnt bite and people left them alone thinking there wasnt any in that spot. Now we can definatly see them and there for thrash the water to foam until one bites because we know they are there for sure. Any way thats off topic but if we work out the ultimate colour god forbid what will happen to fish populations as there only defence is the fact that occasionally they just dont bite because one very minor detail or shade of colour isnt 100 percent correct.
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Re: The effects of fluorescent orange... and contrast ?

Post by ronje »

Point taken. Leave the mystery about fishing where it is. Lot to be said for that, I guess.

You're right about the spawning aggregations. There is a 3 month closed season here 1 Nov to 1 Feb for that very reason. I guess that's what's being targeted at the mouth of the Mary each year (where there seems to be an endless stream of boats trolling).


For a sensor that isn't the prime one used by barra (like you I think the lateral line is No.1), lure colour sure has a lot of attention paid to it by the tackle industry. I believe that the lateral line gets barra to the lure where eyes take over at the last moment for the strike. The more visible the lure, the more accurate the strike. If the water is clear enough, the colour comes into play a bit earlier after the lateral line has done its job.

I've been thinking about the DOA imitation prawn that you mentioned. There's no fiddly bits or apparent vibration generators so I'll have a good look at that to see what the secret might be. An apparent exception like the DOA doesn't mean that the mechanics are wrong. To me it means that DOAs have another way of generating the vibrations. Maybe its simply the way its manipulated through the water. Like a surface stick-bait perhaps?

Have you ever thought about the effect of wind on the water surface? One of the "golden rules" here with floodplain billabongs is don't bother barra fishing on a southerly wind.

Wind produces little waves which are pressure waves that travel through the water hitting the lateral lines and creating low-level background interference. Barra don't like that as they then can't sense any movement signals hitting the lateral lines. Like trying to listen to the news when someone is mowing.

Strong run has the same effect so barra move to reduce the effect. In times of strong run, they move to areas of less run like to the edges or obstructions. Lots of gurus confidently push the line that barra are "ambush" predators. I think the reason is much simpler. They simply move to areas of less lateral line stimulation so they can "hear" the dinner bell better.

With wind its a bit harder to do that so the options are less. Worth looking at as a tactic on windy days.

Anyway, I think that the confusion wrt colour is one of the industry's own making and its unintentional end result is to retain some of the mystery. Modern day sounders have sure taken a lot of the technical mystery out of fishing.
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Ronje
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Re: The effects of fluorescent orange... and contrast ?

Post by slug »

ronje wrote: Have you ever thought about the effect of wind on the water surface? One of the "golden rules" here with floodplain billabongs is don't bother barra fishing on a southerly wind.

Wind produces little waves which are pressure waves that travel through the water hitting the lateral lines and creating low-level background interference. Barra don't like that as they then can't sense any movement signals hitting the lateral lines. Like trying to listen to the news when someone is mowing.

Strong run has the same effect so barra move to reduce the effect. In times of strong run, they move to areas of less run like to the edges or obstructions. Lots of gurus confidently push the line that barra are "ambush" predators. I think the reason is much simpler. They simply move to areas of less lateral line stimulation so they can "hear" the dinner bell better.
I find that for every 'theory' regarding fish 'psychology', there is a contradictory theory - or practical exception (particularly when it comes to barramundi).

While understanding your analogy re barra and lateral line signals interfered by localised conditions, most of the cricket score sessions I've had have been at raging waterfalls of flood water crashing down into the main river/creek, creating washing machine like turbulence. When it's on, the soft plastics are smashed the micro second they hit the surface immediately under the waterfall ??? And generally in these fish a cast sessions, the visibility would be next to zero. Stuffed if I know how they find the lure??
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Re: The effects of fluorescent orange... and contrast ?

Post by Sullo »

slug wrote:
ronje wrote: Have you ever thought about the effect of wind on the water surface? One of the "golden rules" here with floodplain billabongs is don't bother barra fishing on a southerly wind.

Wind produces little waves which are pressure waves that travel through the water hitting the lateral lines and creating low-level background interference. Barra don't like that as they then can't sense any movement signals hitting the lateral lines. Like trying to listen to the news when someone is mowing.

Strong run has the same effect so barra move to reduce the effect. In times of strong run, they move to areas of less run like to the edges or obstructions. Lots of gurus confidently push the line that barra are "ambush" predators. I think the reason is much simpler. They simply move to areas of less lateral line stimulation so they can "hear" the dinner bell better.
I find that for every 'theory' regarding fish 'psychology', there is a contradictory theory - or practical exception (particularly when it comes to barramundi).

While understanding your analogy re barra and lateral line signals interfered by localised conditions, most of the cricket score sessions I've had have been at raging waterfalls of flood water crashing down into the main river/creek, creating washing machine like turbulence. When it's on, the soft plastics are smashed the micro second they hit the surface immediately under the waterfall ??? And generally in these fish a cast sessions, the visibility would be next to zero. Stuffed if I know how they find the lure??
Had my best sessions in that same washing machine water slug.

The wind blown side of billabongs etc are the first place i would look for barra,headlands and islands i wont even bother fishing without 15knts making foamy dirty water
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Re: The effects of fluorescent orange... and contrast ?

Post by jeffish »

Hi ronje,
Like the post mate ,it certainly gets you thinking outside the box . I often wonder why a certain lure works one day in an area and not the next time in similar conditions . Water colour plays a big part in my lure color selection and I often modify lures with a paint pen adding black ,white and red dots or stripes .

Here's a few pics of colour change . The first one is man made from the Buff ck poo shooter the rest around East pt .
017.JPG
015.JPG
019.JPG
030.JPG
045.JPG
.

And never leave home without this one :D
014.JPG
Cheers :mrgreen:
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ronje
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Re: The effects of fluorescent orange... and contrast ?

Post by ronje »

Don't know about fish psychology. I have enough trouble trying to work out how my missus mind works let alone that of a fish.

Haven't done anything on the effect of wind waves yet but I will at some point.

Barra lateral lines work a lot differently to any other sensor a human has. Maybe the effect underwater is the same as what heavy rain has on water surfaces. Maybe.

A simple explanation on why "washing machine" water doesn't seem to faze 'em could easily be that the vibrations produced are beyond the range of reception of a barra's lateral line which is 10 hertz. As you get higher in freq, the lateral line gets deafer and deafer. Washing machine water might simply be too high in freq for a barra's lateral line to detect. I don't know if that's the case or not 'cos I haven't looked at it (or wind effect).

I'm still grappling with the basics.

You guys got any ideas?
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Re: The effects of fluorescent orange... and contrast ?

Post by NinjaFish »

This is getting very interesting...

I would assume that there are so many variables on the conditions and taking into account rivers, creeks versus estuaries etc and, at different times...

The first pic of Shady I posted, you could have cast Jeff's discount card in. It was filthy but no matter what you cast, you hooked up. I know Barra are more voracious in the build up/breeding/run off season and any rushing (local) water would be an attraction to them - if you were local and only had a pond to swim in.

Harbour Arms with big current/wind/heat etc, I believe are a different story all together up here.

I figure that if I were a soft snack Mullet I would not be hanging on the edges or in the turbulence of windy water (shallows) - it's hard enough getting beat up against the rocks or the bank before you get eaten I'd imagine and I've never hooked up in those conditions so I just go trolling out from the edges a bit where I suspect the bait retreats to - as rough as they can handle and in fear!

I'm pretty confident in saying if it's windy and choppy you just have to fish deeper water where the bait move to from the rough edges, at least in the shallows of Darwin Harbour arms.

In saying all that, I had a small Barra grab the end of my finger one night when I reached over the transom to rinse my fingers. I jumped in fright and the bow waves - at least 20 of, departed from the back of the boat at great speed.

The clue... they were attracted to the trickle of the live bait tank in dead silence while we had livies strategically positioned for only a couple of fish!

Sneaky indeed. :fishy:
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Re: The effects of fluorescent orange... and contrast ?

Post by ronje »

Finally found proper scientific research to support the "missing link" results that I found and that Matt published. Its not an easy thing to publish backyard/citizen science research and I thank Matt for his vote of confidence in doing so.

Scientific stuff was carried out by Mayke Stomp at University of Amsterdam in 2008 and published in 2014.

The image had this caption.

The underwater light colour in (a) clear oceans, (b) coastal waters of intermediate turbidity and (c)
extremely turbid lakes. With increasing turbidity, the light spectrum is shifted towards red wavelengths.


Remember the image I showed in Matt's article with the Xs on it? And the advice to "follow the X" as the water got murkier? Here's the real scientific support for that advice.

This thread is titled "fluorescent orange..and contrast" but it's a lot more than fluro orange.

AND, we haven't even touched on contrast yet.

There'll be some more to come about contrast.
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Re: The effects of fluorescent orange... and contrast ?

Post by ronje »

A bit more info about colours underwater in dirty water.

Dirtier (higher turbidity) water means that light penetrates less and that the light that does penetrate best is red (follow the X as in previous posts).

In water that's stirred up by high tidal run, I look for areas with less run (barra like to conserve energy) which usually means on the edges of headlands, points and snags.

But especially around rock bars or rocky points.

To me those areas are shallow with dirty water and a no-brainer for a red/orange shallow diving lure. Enter gold bombers etc.

The other feature of high tidal run is that the murkier water is interspaced with patches of cleaner water. Bit like a run-off with clean/dirty colour lines but in this case spread all over the creek/river or rocky point. Multiple colour lines.

That's also a sign that a 2 colour lure is odds-on to do well (providing you pick the 2 best colours).

I went for red (dirty water) and green (for the less murky patches of water). I consider red and green as the best combinations for an all-round lure. R and G are opposites on the "colour wheel" and are perfect contrasts with each other.

The only colours that I play with now are all fluorescent. I reckon I've got the local market cornered on fluro spray paint, grey undercoat and fine steel wool.

It feels strange at times, getting stuck into $25 - $30 brand new Rapala lures with steel wool to scuff up the surface for an undercoat to stick to.

Even stranger to spray paint such a beautifully finished work of art. They are real works of art and a fashion statement but the colours are all wrong for dirty water fishing. They don't have much in the way of dirty water where they're designed (northern Europe) and what we see in Aus from Rapala are lure colours for clean water .

Here are some Rapalas that I've re-painted for dirty water use. As a painter, I'm no Rembrandt. More an impressionist like Picasso (you have to look beyond the paint job to find the real beauty).

In other words, I can't paint. I use a spray can, some masking tape and a sense of humour. I paint to attract barramundi not art lovers.

Anyhow here are some examples of red/green shallow diving Rapalas.

I've mixed up the colour patterns to avoid the traditional horizontal combinations. I reckon that horizontal patterns (which is what lure makers tend to mostly use) only gives a red or a green option depending if the fish is above or below the lure.

I've also tried a vertical stripe combination and the one that seems to cover any angle is the spiral pattern. Thinking about a spiral colour pattern to take out depth differences, it seems so obvious but I've never seen one from any of the lure makers. Always the traditional horizontal sometimes with a few vertical squiggly black or red lines.

So far I've tried the fluro R/G combination on 5 trips with 2 different friends and the results are good. 10 barra/king for me on RG (also lost a few barra) and 1 barra on a grey/white combo for 1 friend. Other friend gave up on 3rd outing and started using RG (nuclear chicken) soft plastics for 2 king. They weren't fluro plastics. He commented that he didn't want to be seen using "ugly" lures. I think he's an art lover.

Looks promising but still a little way to go yet before I call it a huge success.

Note that the fluro green is real green(not chartreuse) and the red is real red (fire engine) and not pink/orange.
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Re: The effects of fluorescent orange... and contrast ?

Post by b-radical »

You really know how to get us thinking ronje. Thanks and don't stop sharing such valuable information thats for all of us :mrgreen:
:cheers:
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Re: The effects of fluorescent orange... and contrast ?

Post by ronje »

Never thought about spiral colour pattern?

You're right. Getting you guys thinking IS the aim. I'll give you the best info I can (sometimes a bit out there but always soundly based) and hope that you guys can put it together yourselves.

Got some info on contrast which is the "guts" of what this is all about.
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Re: The effects of fluorescent orange... and contrast ?

Post by ronje »

Bit more info based on some advice I received about the effect of undercoat on painted finish.

I had been using grey undercoat and now use white.

Big difference in the finished product.

Makes a brightness difference when looking at it in usual light but only marginal in increased depth when used.

Can see a difference when hit with the old U/V torch treatment.

Those darker fluro colours (red/green) have been working well in the shallowly rocky areas in dirty/murky floodwater currently in the Fitzroy. So do the newer ones.

The red paint on both lures came from the same spray can (red fluro) even though the newer colour scheme looks like orange in the photo. It's red in real life and its just the different undercoat at work.


Incidently, did you know that the "U/V torches" are not U/V at all? They're simply plain old purple light which doesn't work as well as real u/v but is much safer.

Other pix shows my laboratory setup for measuring effects of fluro paint on waters of different turbidity/murkiness.

Tailgate of ute, dirty/clean water to provide wanted turbidity of water being tested, coloured washers being fluro one side/plain paint on other, comprehensive data recording devices (sheet of paper and biro), a stainless steel ruler (only the best) and lastly a proper murkiness scientific instrument (simple old turbidity tube).

Good example of "citizen science" at work.
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Re: The effects of fluorescent orange... and contrast ?

Post by al57 »

great work there ron iot does get you thinking about those dirty water areas which we have heaps of here in hervey bay ,with your lures too you can get an old onion bag/material and fold it around your red base coat and and peg it tight , spray your flouro on light to get the scale effect ,airbrush does it great but i have used cans before keeping them a fair way away from lure when spraying .
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