The effects of fluorescent orange... and contrast ?

ronje
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Re: The effects of fluorescent orange... and contrast ?

Post by ronje » Tue Jan 01, 2019 9:39 am

Fellas

I'm looking for a couple of images that make up the water colours that you fish in at different times of the year.

Preferably underwater images for those of you with go-pro stills or video over the side of the boat.

Clearer water in run-off? Dirtier water where runoff meets river? Dams? Inshore reefs or headlands?

I'm doing up an article based on contrast following up on the "what colours can be best seen" articles. Basically how to use "most visible colours to give contrast between lure and differing background water colour".

For example, a colour may be indistinguishable from the background water colour at times.

I'm ok with local waters but need some images of barramundi water from other parts of Aus. Not looking for extremes of murkiness or colour (got plenty of murky stuff locally).


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Ronje

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Re: The effects of fluorescent orange... and contrast ?

Post by NinjaFish » Wed Jan 02, 2019 2:09 pm

I could dig out a few from around the Harbour here for you but none from under the water Ron.

I look forward to reading your research and whether there's a difference between full sun and full overcast conditions - maybe a combined third and conclusive article :D
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ronje
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Re: The effects of fluorescent orange... and contrast ?

Post by ronje » Thu Jan 03, 2019 8:03 am

Thanks for those images.

Can I use them, please?
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Ronje

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Re: The effects of fluorescent orange... and contrast ?

Post by NinjaFish » Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:14 am

Not a problem Ron.

The bottom two pics are from West Arm.

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Water Colours... (not the paintings).LOL

Post by Flickin4em » Fri Jan 04, 2019 3:22 am

Couple of pics for the upcoming article mate. Sorry, I forgot to bring the gopro and lure prodder to ziptie it onto this trip but will get a few underwater ones for you later too.
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ronje
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Re: The effects of fluorescent orange... and contrast ?

Post by ronje » Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:35 am

Mate, don't apologise. I'm grateful for whatever I can get. Thank you.

If you're going to use a lure prodder to get the gopro down to a bit of depth, can I suggest that you put some depth markings on it to show the image at different depths? THAT would be great!

Here, the water is mostly murky all the time (unless you go above the barrage into the fresh after its had 6 months to settle following a run in the river). Then its "murky green".

A few years ago at Port Alma, I can recall thinking how clean the water was when I could actually see down far enough to watch the prop turning while idling around at the ramp.

Here's that photo of the Kokoda Barra Assassin soft plastic that I was talking about. Geez, I've caught some barra with that particular lure here.
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Ronje

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Re: The effects of fluorescent orange... and contrast ?

Post by cuddlescooper » Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:41 pm

Another factor in fish chewing or not is what mood they are in and what preditors are around. Later in the year on a river such as the daly the bullsharks are fierce and plentiful. In my oppinion during this stage of the river using a lure that has a massive amount of vibration is a waste of time. Any thing that puts out a large amount of vibration is usually big and is potentialy a preditor such as a shark. I believe that this is part of the reason that barra will hit prawn imitations a lot better as they have a lack of vibration. The Doa is another lure with minimal vibration and seems to work.

I also have a tendancy to try and hide the lure more than make it obvious to fish. Matching the water colour to the lure colour.

On a trip to a big river mouth recently we caught fish on 5 different coloured lures. Usually we ran 4 different rods all with the same brand and depth lures to keep the test to some scientific standard. The funny part was the colour that got hit changed as the conditions did and on many occasions only one of the rods would go off for 4 or five fish in a row. In low light morning conditions the kryptonite colour got eatin most, as the tide got higher and was running harder with some milky coloured mud boil the white lures came into play, as the water cleared at the top of the tide in bright sun the light brown and clear body flurescent colours turned on. As the water turned to pump out and the water colour closed over with mud boils the bright fluro green and black custom colour from craigs yielded results. So my conclusion was that some times we were trying to make the lure stand out, but other times we were trying to hide it. Some times you just wanted to give your self an upper cut for even thinking it was possible to understand what was happening but there was a definate pattern happening. Eventuall we ran 2 of the same colour and 2 of another colour and still only one colour would get hit. So yes i believe colour plays a part, but it is 5th thing inline for me behind depth, size, action, speed, colour, and probably the biggest thing fish density. If you are not where the fish are in numbers your chances are next to zero!

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Re: The effects of fluorescent orange... and contrast ?

Post by ronje » Sat Jan 05, 2019 7:52 am

Some times you just wanted to give your self an upper cut for even thinking it was possible to understand what was happening but there was a definate pattern happening
Hello Cuddles. How've you been?

Maybe I'd have been better off giving myself that uppercut, Cuddles 'cos it sure has been some journey trying to put some sense into the subject of lures.

We ALL have a knowledge base usually based on experience. Trying to work backwards from what works is sure difficult. Usually that means following one theory after another until the trail runs cold or proves inconclusive. Then we're no further advanced. One theory is as good as another no matter what experience its based on.

My aim was to reduce the theory field by figuring out the technical things and using THEM as the yardstick for theories. Give the theories some basis in fact (so to speak).

We all have a experience base. I'm trying to complement that by give us more of a knowledge base so that some of the theories can be discarded. Change the balance towards knowledge a bit. And there some doozie theories that have been turned into "gospel" by influential people within fishing circles. Some have lasted for years.

The standout in the line of bulldust has been the depth penetration of different colours in water. Everybody (including me for a while) simply accepted what was being pedalled as fact based on experience. I have this view on life that perception if left unchallenged becomes fact. So I basically check out "facts".

What I've found is that a lot of these "facts" are simply unchallenged perceptions that have been repeated over and over mostly with a view that in the credibility stakes its better to be confidently wrong rather than be hesitantly correct.

To me a barra is a fish whose aim is survival. The prime driver is food and it has developed sophisticated tools over a long long time to achieve that. Look at how barramundi vision has evolved (with its party trick eyes) to help it see food in the environment in which it lives. Similarly its developed tools that sense movement in the water (potential food) and hearing tools which maybe double up as atmospheric pressure change tools.

I believe that all I've done with this stuff to date is slightly open the door into the "knowledge room". Its sure been a learning experience.

Your examples of changing conditions clearly demonstrate just how observant and alert someone should be to what's changing around them and the need to improvise.

If I can just say that it took a lot of ferreting to come to grips with light and colours underwater. Mainly because of the amount of misinformation and misunderstanding "out there" particularly in the fishing world.

ALL of the stuff I've written (and there's a lot in the knowledge base for people who want to look) can be condensed down into the attached spreadsheet.

The accompanying advice to put it into effect?

Look at the water around you and Follow the X.
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Regards
Ronje


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Re: The effects of fluorescent orange... and contrast ?

Post by cuddlescooper » Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:28 pm

Hi Ronje, ive been travelling well. (Hopefully you have also)...Just staying out of trouble....you know me! Lol

I hope we never really work fish out as it would be a boring sport. In fact i believe they should ban modern sounders as the fish now have no where to hide and all of the spawning agrigations are coming under such intense pressure. Before there was an amount of luck and a lot of time on the water to find fish. Occasionally the fish didnt bite and people left them alone thinking there wasnt any in that spot. Now we can definatly see them and there for thrash the water to foam until one bites because we know they are there for sure. Any way thats off topic but if we work out the ultimate colour god forbid what will happen to fish populations as there only defence is the fact that occasionally they just dont bite because one very minor detail or shade of colour isnt 100 percent correct.

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Re: The effects of fluorescent orange... and contrast ?

Post by ronje » Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:28 am

Point taken. Leave the mystery about fishing where it is. Lot to be said for that, I guess.

You're right about the spawning aggregations. There is a 3 month closed season here 1 Nov to 1 Feb for that very reason. I guess that's what's being targeted at the mouth of the Mary each year (where there seems to be an endless stream of boats trolling).


For a sensor that isn't the prime one used by barra (like you I think the lateral line is No.1), lure colour sure has a lot of attention paid to it by the tackle industry. I believe that the lateral line gets barra to the lure where eyes take over at the last moment for the strike. The more visible the lure, the more accurate the strike. If the water is clear enough, the colour comes into play a bit earlier after the lateral line has done its job.

I've been thinking about the DOA imitation prawn that you mentioned. There's no fiddly bits or apparent vibration generators so I'll have a good look at that to see what the secret might be. An apparent exception like the DOA doesn't mean that the mechanics are wrong. To me it means that DOAs have another way of generating the vibrations. Maybe its simply the way its manipulated through the water. Like a surface stick-bait perhaps?

Have you ever thought about the effect of wind on the water surface? One of the "golden rules" here with floodplain billabongs is don't bother barra fishing on a southerly wind.

Wind produces little waves which are pressure waves that travel through the water hitting the lateral lines and creating low-level background interference. Barra don't like that as they then can't sense any movement signals hitting the lateral lines. Like trying to listen to the news when someone is mowing.

Strong run has the same effect so barra move to reduce the effect. In times of strong run, they move to areas of less run like to the edges or obstructions. Lots of gurus confidently push the line that barra are "ambush" predators. I think the reason is much simpler. They simply move to areas of less lateral line stimulation so they can "hear" the dinner bell better.

With wind its a bit harder to do that so the options are less. Worth looking at as a tactic on windy days.

Anyway, I think that the confusion wrt colour is one of the industry's own making and its unintentional end result is to retain some of the mystery. Modern day sounders have sure taken a lot of the technical mystery out of fishing.
Regards
Ronje

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Re: The effects of fluorescent orange... and contrast ?

Post by slug » Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:33 am

ronje wrote: Have you ever thought about the effect of wind on the water surface? One of the "golden rules" here with floodplain billabongs is don't bother barra fishing on a southerly wind.

Wind produces little waves which are pressure waves that travel through the water hitting the lateral lines and creating low-level background interference. Barra don't like that as they then can't sense any movement signals hitting the lateral lines. Like trying to listen to the news when someone is mowing.

Strong run has the same effect so barra move to reduce the effect. In times of strong run, they move to areas of less run like to the edges or obstructions. Lots of gurus confidently push the line that barra are "ambush" predators. I think the reason is much simpler. They simply move to areas of less lateral line stimulation so they can "hear" the dinner bell better.
I find that for every 'theory' regarding fish 'psychology', there is a contradictory theory - or practical exception (particularly when it comes to barramundi).

While understanding your analogy re barra and lateral line signals interfered by localised conditions, most of the cricket score sessions I've had have been at raging waterfalls of flood water crashing down into the main river/creek, creating washing machine like turbulence. When it's on, the soft plastics are smashed the micro second they hit the surface immediately under the waterfall ??? And generally in these fish a cast sessions, the visibility would be next to zero. Stuffed if I know how they find the lure??

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Re: The effects of fluorescent orange... and contrast ?

Post by Sullo » Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:36 am

slug wrote:
ronje wrote: Have you ever thought about the effect of wind on the water surface? One of the "golden rules" here with floodplain billabongs is don't bother barra fishing on a southerly wind.

Wind produces little waves which are pressure waves that travel through the water hitting the lateral lines and creating low-level background interference. Barra don't like that as they then can't sense any movement signals hitting the lateral lines. Like trying to listen to the news when someone is mowing.

Strong run has the same effect so barra move to reduce the effect. In times of strong run, they move to areas of less run like to the edges or obstructions. Lots of gurus confidently push the line that barra are "ambush" predators. I think the reason is much simpler. They simply move to areas of less lateral line stimulation so they can "hear" the dinner bell better.
I find that for every 'theory' regarding fish 'psychology', there is a contradictory theory - or practical exception (particularly when it comes to barramundi).

While understanding your analogy re barra and lateral line signals interfered by localised conditions, most of the cricket score sessions I've had have been at raging waterfalls of flood water crashing down into the main river/creek, creating washing machine like turbulence. When it's on, the soft plastics are smashed the micro second they hit the surface immediately under the waterfall ??? And generally in these fish a cast sessions, the visibility would be next to zero. Stuffed if I know how they find the lure??
Had my best sessions in that same washing machine water slug.

The wind blown side of billabongs etc are the first place i would look for barra,headlands and islands i wont even bother fishing without 15knts making foamy dirty water

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Re: The effects of fluorescent orange... and contrast ?

Post by jeffish » Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:43 am

Hi ronje,
Like the post mate ,it certainly gets you thinking outside the box . I often wonder why a certain lure works one day in an area and not the next time in similar conditions . Water colour plays a big part in my lure color selection and I often modify lures with a paint pen adding black ,white and red dots or stripes .

Here's a few pics of colour change . The first one is man made from the Buff ck poo shooter the rest around East pt .
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And never leave home without this one :D
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Cheers :mrgreen:
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Re: The effects of fluorescent orange... and contrast ?

Post by ronje » Sun Jan 06, 2019 5:20 pm

Don't know about fish psychology. I have enough trouble trying to work out how my missus mind works let alone that of a fish.

Haven't done anything on the effect of wind waves yet but I will at some point.

Barra lateral lines work a lot differently to any other sensor a human has. Maybe the effect underwater is the same as what heavy rain has on water surfaces. Maybe.

A simple explanation on why "washing machine" water doesn't seem to faze 'em could easily be that the vibrations produced are beyond the range of reception of a barra's lateral line which is 10 hertz. As you get higher in freq, the lateral line gets deafer and deafer. Washing machine water might simply be too high in freq for a barra's lateral line to detect. I don't know if that's the case or not 'cos I haven't looked at it (or wind effect).

I'm still grappling with the basics.

You guys got any ideas?
Regards
Ronje

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