Is the record Arctic ice melt a concern?

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This year's record Arctic ice melt is ...

A problem
11
58%
Not a problem
8
42%
 
Total votes: 19

nomad
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Re: Is the record Arctic ice melt a concern?

Post by nomad »

ken_dog wrote:Geez I,d hate to be your kids.....
so would i. My comments were tongue in cheek
sarrge wrote:Been watching QI Nomad?? :lol:
yep but ive heard it before :D

I think the bottom line is that we shouldn’t be trying to stop global warming by making small gestures here in Australia

China is opening a new coal fired power station almost every week so anything we do here will have bugger all effect. (china also spent 30 odd billion dollars last year developing green power generation technology.

for every scientist on the side of climate change, there willalways be another on the opposite side.

What we have to do is make the use of green technology more cost effective than coal etc.
that wont happen whilever Australia has a vested interest to keep selling coal


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Re: Is the record Arctic ice melt a concern?

Post by sarrge »

nomad wrote:
......I think the bottom line is that we shouldn’t be trying to stop global warming by making small gestures here in Australia
This!
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Re: Is the record Arctic ice melt a concern?

Post by Queasy »

nomad wrote: for every scientist on the side of climate change, there will always be another on the opposite side.
Agreed. The thing is, the 'other' on the opposite side tends to be a member of the general public, and not an expert by any means. The overwhelming majority of experts believe in human induced climate change. From recollection, the stats are something like 97% of scientists, but only about 50% (and this figure fluctuates more wildly) of the general public. Now why would that be? It would appear as people become more educated on the matter, they come to understand how we're affecting climate and stop denying it. No?
nomad wrote:
I think the bottom line is that we shouldn’t be trying to stop global warming by making small gestures here in Australia

China is opening a new coal fired power station almost every week so anything we do here will have bugger all effect. (china also spent 30 odd billion dollars last year developing green power generation technology.
Yes, Australia alone isn't going to halt global warming by itself, not by a long shot. But we can't use the argument that we are small and insignificant. Everyone needs to pull their own weight. China will argue that they shouldn't have to do much as a developing country if Australia doesn't do enough. China and the other big emitters need to become greatly more efficient, and we can't afford to give them excuses for not doing so.
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Re: Is the record Arctic ice melt a concern?

Post by jpb15 »

the problem as I see it is, Global warming alarmists are only looking at the last 200 or so years.
Go back 10000, 20000, or 50000 years, and the temperature of the earth has gone from hot to freezing cold, and now it is warming up again.
In a few years time, maybe a thousand, maybe 10000, I have no doubt, it will be freezing again.

I do however accept that we could not keep on polluting the earth, the way we were 20 years plus ago, and there are probably some advantages in going green, but stoping global warming is not one one of the advantages.
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Re: Is the record Arctic ice melt a concern?

Post by Queasy »

jpb15 wrote:the problem as I see it is, Global warming alarmists are only looking at the last 200 or so years.
Go back 10000, 20000, or 50000 years, and the temperature of the earth has gone from hot to freezing cold, and now it is warming up again.
In a few years time, maybe a thousand, maybe 10000, I have no doubt, it will be freezing again.

I do however accept that we could not keep on polluting the earth, the way we were 20 years plus ago, and there are probably some advantages in going green, but stoping global warming is not one one of the advantages.
I think its fair enough that we look at the current trend, which is up. That is what will affect us. If that continues, we won't be here in 1000 years (at least not in the numbers we are now), and the same goes for most other species.

Just because there are natural cycles that have played out over many thousands of years does not mean that humans cannot have a major climatic impact in a relatively short space of time.
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Re: Is the record Arctic ice melt a concern?

Post by DOUG »

Wasn't it the coldest winter on record ever over in the states or Europe a couple of years ago ??
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Re: Is the record Arctic ice melt a concern?

Post by Ben Jam »

Yeah but then they have record heat too, climate change is real you would have to be a f-wit the even try a debate it. I don't think anyone is saying that us (human) are the soul blame, the question is are we are speeding up the process? We have now hit over 7 billion people on earth, that to me is common sense! However you turning off your lights and air con is not going to change anything, but 7 billion people turning to more greener means, well who the fark know!! Can't prove it right??
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Re: Is the record Arctic ice melt a concern?

Post by Queasy »

DOUG wrote:Wasn't it the coldest winter on record ever over in the states or Europe a couple of years ago ??
I don't recall. I do know that the U.S. has had a very hot and dry summer, and that's been reflected in low yields and high prices for corn.

But why would you bring up one season in one region several years ago, when every global temperature graph makes it abundantly clear that temperatures are rising?

The link between CO2 and heat has been known for well over one hundered years. It should be no surprise that there is a strong correlation between CO2 concentrations and global temperature. As the title of this thread has shows, this is reflected in record low arctic ice.

The other thing about CO2 that isn't discussed as much, and may be more relevant to this forum, is its future affect on fish stocks. CO2, when dissolved in water, forms carbonic acid. It is not a strong acid like hydrochloric acid, but it is an acid nonetheless. As a result of the oceans becoming increasingly acidic, small crustaceans which form the base of the foodchain are having increasing difficulty growing their shells. Studies from several years ago indicated that shells were 30% lighter than they were supposed to be. This will only get worse if the concentrations of CO2 are increased ie. we keep burning fossil fuels. So any fisho who refuses to care about climate change should still consider other detrimental impacts of CO2.
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Re: Is the record Arctic ice melt a concern?

Post by nomad »

DOUG wrote:Wasn't it the coldest winter on record ever over in the states or Europe a couple of years ago ??
you are confusing climate with weather. both vastly different. google
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Re: Is the record Arctic ice melt a concern?

Post by DOUG »

I'm not confusing anything I just made a statement!!
:) :) but I think it's all a big scam
Wasn't it like a great freeze that was gonna kill all our great grand parents or something a decade or so ago ?? I shoulda listened more in school hey !
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Re: Is the record Arctic ice melt a concern?

Post by Queasy »

DOUG wrote:I'm not confusing anything I just made a statement!!
:) :) but I think it's all a big scam
Wasn't it like a great freeze that was gonna kill all our great grand parents or something a decade or so ago ?? I shoulda listened more in school hey !
The scientific opinion on climate change is that the Earth's climate system is unequivocally warming, and it is more than 90% certain that humans are causing it through activities that increase concentrations of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere, such as deforestation and burning fossil fuels. No scientific body of national or international standing has maintained a dissenting opinion on this. Note that these scientists are independent, so their findings are likely to be honest and as accurate as the science permits. The accuracy is usually expressed statistically.

The scam to which you refer is run by the deniers. People like Loony Lord Monckton, who are funded to come and talk garbage by Gina Rinehart, the coal and iron ore billionaire, who has a massive vested interest maintaining the burning of fossil fuels. Who would you choose to believe?

Regarding the great freeze a decade ago, you might be thinking of the movie by Roland Emmerich's titled The Day After Tomorrow? It has taken quite a bit of flak for being scientifically preposterous.
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Re: Is the record Arctic ice melt a concern?

Post by nomad »

DOUG wrote:I'm not confusing anything I just made a statement!!
:) :) but I think it's all a big scam
Wasn't it like a great freeze that was gonna kill all our great grand parents or something a decade or so ago ?? I shoulda listened more in school hey !
there is a huge difference between climate change and weather

the cold snap this year in russia killed hundreds of people in a week BUT they experienced a milder winter than usual.
a week of cold weather is just that - weather
the milder winter is climate


Not even climate change or a cold snap would kill my great grandparents. they have been dead for a long time :twisted:

ill be dead in 20 years so climate change doesnt worry ME - its the kids like you that should really be worried

when i was a young bloke, all we had to worry about was getting home from the pub in time to go to work. there were BIG issues going on all around us but we had NFI and didnt care
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Re: Is the record Arctic ice melt a concern?

Post by Ben Jam »

when i was a young bloke, all we had to worry about was getting home from the pub in time to go to work. there were BIG issues going on all around us but we had NFI and didnt care[/quote]

Weren't you worried about being drafted into Vietnam war?
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Re: Is the record Arctic ice melt a concern?

Post by DOUG »

The documentary I watched said when can do as much as we like but a bush wires ad volcanos do more damage than humans have done all together an they are all natural occurances how does that work ?? There have been fires and volcanoes long before we started Interfering with the atmosphere or ozone layer or "climatechange " or whatever you wanna call it !! I say it's just one big cycle !!
All these massive canyons that they are finding fish fossils in hundreds of kilometers from water they obviously where under water once upon a time ??
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Re: Is the record Arctic ice melt a concern?

Post by Queasy »

DOUG wrote:The documentary I watched said when can do as much as we like but a bush wires ad volcanos do more damage than humans have done all together an they are all natural occurances how does that work ?? There have been fires and volcanoes long before we started Interfering with the atmosphere or ozone layer or "climatechange " or whatever you wanna call it !! I say it's just one big cycle !!
All these massive canyons that they are finding fish fossils in hundreds of kilometers from water they obviously where under water once upon a time ??
So are you saying then that one documentary (which you haven't referenced so may have been produced by Gina Rinehart for all we know!) outweighs the view of every scientific body on this planet?

Let's look firstly at volcanoes. From my understanding they actually have a cooling affect on the planet. They erupt thousands of tonnes of ash and suphuric acid, which block/reflect a portion of the light away. The affect diminishes over time as the dust settles, so after a number of years we're back to normal.

Bushfires too will release a lot of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere. But again, as the forest regenerates, it will re-absorb that carbon dioxide. After a number of years, as the forest matures, we're back to square one.

On the other hand, with digging up fossil fuels and burning them, the carbon dioxide is released into the atmosphere and stays there. Same too if the forests are burnt and then turned into farmland. Thus these two activities result in a net increase of CO2 in the atmosphere. As a result of this, carbon dioxide concentrations have been steadily increasing for the past 200 years or so, just google carbon dioxide concentration and you'll see what I mean. The more carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, the hotter the planet becomes. The link between CO2 and heat has been known for a very long time, well over a hundred years. Its all very logical if you think about it, certainly not a scam.

On long time scales, things have changed. Australia, for example, was part of a great supercontinent connected with antarctica and others. Sea levels have changed, but so have land levels. Everest gets higher by a cm a year I think. I believe the current theory is that the dinosaurs were killed off when a meteorite hit the earth, sending massive amounts of dust into the atmosphere and sending the planet into a long winter. But just because there have been long term cycles, it does not change the fact that we can have a massive impact on the climate in a short space of time. Would you choose to trust a single doco produced by ??? or the conclusion of eminent scientists who clearly state that humans are responsible?

BTW ozone layer depletion and climate change are even more separate than weather and climate.
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