North Australian FISH FINDER TM forums

Hi Nathan L

No my friend. I'm not wrong but I do commend you on trying to find out for yourself.

I'm well aware of what the Act says, what the Regs say and what the Barramundi Fish Management Plan says.

I'm also well aware of the relationships between them that exist within the legislative hierarchy.

The Act lays down the framework for the legislation, the regulations put meat on the bones of the legislative skeleton and Management Plans lay out how specific fisheries will be managed. Barramundi management plan is not the only one.

Reg 46 does indeed talk about amateur gear as u've reproduced above. But its general only and in the absence of a specific management plan, that is the one u have to abide by.

But a management plan does exist in respect of barramundi, that'sthe one you have to comply with and it has extra gear restrictions if barramundi fishing.

That BFMP does indeed tell you what you can't use to catch live bait for barra. A trap/pot for live bait. Ancillary gear does not include a trap/pot for live bait.

Ronje,

You can't add words to the legislation that aren't there. The section you refer to only mentions trap. It does not mention the word pot which you have included.

A trap is technically refered to as having one opening, providing it is not already defined the Act/Regs. Traps and Pots are different. Think of crab pot and croc trap.

You are allowed to use an amateur pot to collect bait for barra fishing.

Amatuer pot is refered to in the; Fisheries Regs;

46 Amateur fishing gear
(1) A person engaged in amateur fishing must not use or have possession of fishing gear other than the following items or an item ancillary to the use of the gear:

(a) vertical line, as hand line or rod and reel;
(b) float line;

(c) troll line;

(d) complying freshwater pot;

(e) complying marine pot;

(f) dilly pot;

(g) amateur drag net

(h) cast net;

(i) scoop net;

(j) bow and arrow other than crossbow;

(k) gaff (including hand-held hook);

(l) hand spear;

(m) knife.

I am hoping this clears the issue up.

Afraid not. Doesn't clear anything up. There is no confusion between pots and traps.

You cannot use a trap for live bait whilst fishing for barramundi.

The law is quite specific

NORTHERN TERRITORY OF AUSTRALIA

BARRAMUNDI FISHERY MANAGEMENT PLAN (As in force at 1 February 2011)

Table of provisions

22. Amateur fishing gear

(1) For subclause (2), amateur gear means a rod and line and attachments, a handline and attachments, a handspear, a long bow or ancillary gear.

(2) Subject to this Part, a person must not fish for barramundi other than by using amateur gear. Maximum penalty: $2 000.

So what is ancillary gear?

Interpretation

(1) In this Part:

ancillary gear includes a gaff, creel, tackle box and tackle but does not include a trap for live bait or a net, other than a landing net.

Mate I accept that you are trying to differentiate between a pot and a trap.

I'm not adding words (pot) that aren't there already. They're just in a different part of the legislation.

They are one and the same thing when talking about crustaceans.

Namely:

FISHERIES REGULATIONS - REG 4

Definitions relating to gear

In these Regulations:

"pot" means a portable device designed to act as a trap, or that may act as a trap, for crustaceans.

Note that this is a means defiinition and not a includes definition which is less specific.

In respect of catching crustaceans (cherabin) as live bait for barramundi, a trap and a pot are the same thing.

The NT Fisheries Act, Regs and Management Plans are very poorly drafted and need revising. This is just another example.

Its no good enforcement ignoring the law or only using it when convenient and turning a blind eye at other times.

Have a look at the Mary River parts of the Barra Fish Management Plan. Particulary the bit that deals with the use of amateur pots. I said u could drive a truck through it and u can.

Ronje,

I agree with the fact you can not use a trap to catch a livebait while barra fishing. No argument there. But I beleive you are still combining pot and trap into the same word when they are not.

I also accept in the Fisheries Regs;

"pot" means a portable device designed to act as a trap, or that may act as a trap, for crustaceans.

But, whilst it is a 'means' definition it also states 'designed to act as a trap' it does not define it as a trap. They couldn't really write 'designed to trick crustaceans into staying in the device' they are using the literal meaning of the word.

I checked with an ex-fisheries officer who is also of the same opinion that a pot can be used to catch bait.

I also agree the the Act and Regs need revising along with a whole heap of other legislation.

This may be case of agree to disagree.

One could argue I don't use them to catch bait. I use it to catch food. Which I suspect is one of the holes you mention.

Cheers,

haha classic....
Love it boys, cmon Ronje dont be defeated there. Another sleepless night of research wont hurt.

For the record I'm with Nofish on this one.

LOVE IT!!!!!

Ex-fisheries officer eh. Well, I'm impressed.

I have a nephew who used to go out with a girl whose father used to cart the manure away from stables at the racecourse. Does that make the nephew an expert on racing?

U fellas take the word of anybody who answers the phone at fisheries. Even the cleaner. Why is that?

Put the ex-fisheries officer on here and we'll soon find out.

Wrighty u don't need sleepness nights of research to pick up the gaping holes in the fishing legislation of the NT. Its right in front of your eyes. Pretty easy to see.

NoFish, the device doesn't have to be designed as a trap. The second barrel of reg4 is that a pot means any portable device that can act like a trap.[/i] That can be a bucket with holes.

The legislative draughtsmen tried to have 2 bob each way with the issue. First a means definition followed immediately by an expansion to the means definition (can act like a trap).

Furthermore the restriction only applies when barramundi fishing.

ronje wrote:Put the ex-fisheries officer on here and we'll soon find out.

How about getting a real live FO to sort it out. ?
we could just surf the FO until we get the answers we want. happens all the time.

Fisheries officers are all out for dinner with the charter operators tonight.

CLASSIC ..................... I think we all just need to chill out and have another beer .................... lucky we arnt scoring this debate or I'd put "ronje" up by 1 .............

My money is on ronje for sure he is like a human computer almost like google

SNAP!

Ronje you're on fire

I went out Barra fishing with my cherabin pots today and was contemplating this discussion, mainly because I couldn't catch Nofish. Then I came back to that. I was willing to concede when given something a little more substantial, but it won't happen now.

You didn't specify what your nephew did. If he was actively involved in horseracing he may be an expert. Just like a Fisheries Officer who is responsible for enforcement of this legislation. I apologise to all for contacting an ex one, but that is all I had access to on a Sunday morning. I obviously didn't think of the consequences of mentioning this, and I take responsibility for that. But all that said, I never claimed he was an expert, it was a second opinion in the unlikley event that was wrong.

I will now refer you to section 11;

11 No traps or pots to be used
A barramundi licensee must not, when fishing under a barramundi licence, use:

(a) a fish trap or a device designed to act as a trap or which may act as a trap; or

(b) a pot, including a dilly pot and a crab pot.

Maximum penalty: $5 000.

Just in case you missed it this section obviously refers to a licensee not an amateur. You will notice that it differentiates between a trap, or device designed to act as a trap, and a pot.

This is how the legislation works, if they (the legislators) specifically intend particular things they will articulate them. Considering this is in the same act/reg all they had to do was cut and paste to the amateur section. If the definition of trap was specifically worded to include a pot they wouldn't need to articulate the difference in section 11. Why would they specify here and not there?

ghound, I tried to call the ex-FO back tonight, mainly to have a cry, but he was unable to talk as he was at a function (probably that charter mob).

Well I think that pretty much completes this discussion. Pots are allowed, traps aren't. You may now worship me

Haha

AMEN

Not so fast.

I have little respect for the opinions of NT fishing officers (ex or otherwise) since ALL offences under the Fisheries Act are regulatory offences. I suspect that you know what that means. No skills needed to enforce regulatory offences and ALL offences under the NT Fisheries Act are regulatory offences.

Sec 11 that you quoted relates to commercial fishing for barramundi. (I didn't miss it). There is no mention of crustaceans like there is the Regs Sec 4.

Where an inconsistency exists between a management plan and a regulation, the management plan prevails to the extent of the inconsistency.
So sec 11 of the management plan prevails over Sec 4 of the regs. But that's only in respect of commercial licensees (and assistants).

However, there is no management plan definition in respect of what constitutes amateur ancillary gear. For that we have to go back to the regs (reg 22).

From it we learn that ancillary gear does not include a trap for live bait.

Reg 4 tells us that a pot is a portable device that ... may act like a trap for crustaeans. (Here there is a difference to the commercial licensee gear. The introduction of crustaceans into the mix).

pot means a portable device designed to act as a trap, or that may act as a trap, for crustaceans.

Lets join the dots.

So as far as amateur barramundi fishing is concerned, whilst fishing for barramundi we cannot use a portable device which is designed to act as a trap or may act as a trap for crustaceans.

Why not? Because such a portable device that may act as a trap for crustaceans is specifically prohibited.

But a portable device designed to act as a trap or may act as a trap is a pot!!!

QED.