Crocodile Management

76Tourer
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Crocodile Management

Post by 76Tourer »

Hi my name is Aaron 14 months ago my father was taken from the back of his boat by a large saltwater crocodile in front of myself and family .

Next month (7th September) there will be an inquiry, this enquiry is not just into dads death but into all recient crocodile attacks, below is my rant which I intend to read at the inquiry .



Having heard recently from a leading crocodile expert that crocodile numbers have reached levels that existed around 200 years ago and it was also said that the explorers document that they regularly seen big numbers of large saltwater crocodile. I feel if I was to see my first large saltwater crocodile a 3 meter individual would awe, intrigue and horrify me, this hearsay evidence must be taken with a grain of salt
I have no training but my eye and experience.
Crocodiles are now larger and in higher saturation levels than ever before in the Northern Top End of Australia, I am of the belief that is due to food sources. The Australian salt water crocodile would have originally survived on mainly Fish, Wallaby, birds, small mammals and each other but with the arrival of the first fleet in 1788 pigs were introduced which went feral throughout Australia . Pigs when they made it to the north of Australia flourished in the wetlands making a fantastic prey for the crocodile.
In 1824 the first Water Buffalo was introduced at Port Essington but it wasn’t until 1829 that they really got a foothold claiming the floodplains as their own, Buffalo too made great prey for the Crocodile. Unfortunately there were no count of crocodile numbers or surveys on size before these two feral animals became a food source for the crocodile as I would hazard a guess that they would have been smaller and lot less than now.
From the time the European arrived with their firearms, the croc would have been fair game but mostly just a few croc’s here and there it wouldn’t have been until the 1900’s that croc’s (in the territory at least) would have been targeted for their skins this really ramped up through the 1940’s and 1950’s until the Australian crocodile was protected in 1971.
Beside the excellent work of Parks and Wildlife Commission of the Northern Territory in the trapping and re-location of crocodiles from urban areas, crocodile management has essentially been let ‘em go and if someone gets hurt we will sort that one out .
I see this inquest heading down the path of an OHS “Hierarchy of Hazard Control”
1. Elimination : Self explanatory but never going to happen
2. Substitution : Not really applicable
3. Isolation : Cull them all keeping some in Zoo’s etc. again never going to happen
4. Engineering Controls : Guarding Guards must be provided when there is the potential for people to come into contact with hazardous situations to ensure that no part of the person can be caught in the moving part.
• Risk: Crocodile entering boat
• Control: Placing appropriate guards to prevent access.
This is the most expensive to the end user, least practical for the fisherperson and least likely to followed by the occasional water user or tourist
5. Administrative controls : advise of a better way of doing things through signage, training and media, this however is only as good as the audience
6. Personal Protective equipment : I guess this comes back to Engineering controls
“So we know the risk. We will throw some signage up, stick some info out in the media, and - without us needing to do anything - it is now your problem, as we have done our Hazard control” ……. This is nothing but a band-aid for a severed limb .
A bit more effort needs to be put into reducing feral animal numbers the horses, pigs and buffalo need a big clean-out this in my humble opinion would help control croc numbers if the large food source is another crocodile …… well just one more that does not need culling .
I am not a hunter but forward the idea that allowing recreational hunters into parks and reserves to target in particular the feral pig population where I see a very lacklustre approach by authority’s would be of some help . As I have read about in the southern states a permit can be obtained to hunt with dogs which must have tracking collars fitted and then dispatching the beast with a sticker or knife, thus eliminating the need for the hunter to have a firearm in a park/reserve. As the dog has a tracking collar on surely no dogs would be lost into the park/reserve as who wants to lose and expensive tracking collar/dog ?
Horses and buffalo on the other hand will need area closures and professional hunters to reduce the numbers perhaps for pet meat ?
Another issue would be stock control as cattle to would be a large food source for croc’s too, perhaps better fencing for stock on waterways ? obviously this will cut the beast off from it’s water source so this too would then need addressing . The food source is key in my opinion… make them eat traditional tucker and I’m sure the remainder will sort it self out .

I would like to see a bounty or trophy cull take place where say 20 crocs per year are authorised to be culled from each river system (tag system), this can only be done by an accredited tour guide whom would be trained to record info to be supplied to researchers. I hear you say only the big croc’s would be culled, for this I am at a bit of a loss, I would hope that the tour operator would be schooled not to take only the biggest reptiles but too share the love and take the animals from 3 meters and up as we need to keep a couple of the “boss croc’s” all for the tourist to goo and gaa over.
I don’t want to see a cull where all and sundry can go out and blow a croc away, as rednecks on the water with guns is a scary thought . Of course the current system of relocation would need to kept up, with the authority’s in urban areas keeping numbers to a fair level through said trapping or elimination .
This would create employment on so many levels ( tourism, retail, vehicle hire and other flow on’s)and the tags could have a dollar value to be paid to the government coffers which then could assist in managing feral species and training tour operators .


Thanks for reading
Aaron


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Re: Crocodile Management

Post by mickkk »

Wow Scotty. That is a very well thought out response, I dont know if I would have such a cool headed and realistic out come to address the "problem" if I were in your position.
Up until the death of your father I did not beleave there was a problem with crocs. There were "rules" that if you followed you would be safe. Every death or attack up until your fathers attack I put down to the humans fult. There were partaking in risky behaviour that I would not do there fore felt I would always be "safe" from attack.
When I first heard the news of the attack I said to keri that that's bull poop, that wouldn't happen, there's something sus going on there. And in the week or two after the attack, even before I or the public knew who the victim was there was a lot of miss information in both mainstream media and social media. There were all sorts of theroys of which could put " blame back on the human". But this was not the case. I still think there are people un aware that bill was standing inside his boat, not in the water at the rear of his boat. Not emptying a bucket of fish guts into the water. There were several false stories doing the rounds.
Bill was just going about his territory lifestyle, adhering to the unwritten rules and was not doing something that I and thousands of other Australians that live in the tropics do every weekend.
For me this was a game changer, along with the increasing attacks that happen on boats moters and hulls. This is why I have come to the conclusion that there is a problem that needs addressing. I hear people say that there has never been a fisho taking whilst launchng his boat, or never a fisho of the barrage. But up until a little over a year ago there had never been a fisho taken from inside a boat.
You are correct that eratication will never happen, and this would be the only way to make it safe to do thinks like swim where ever you want safely.
I think that the reduction in feral animals have three fold advantages and could be done with little cost to the gov as you discussed. To be honest I think it would be hard for anyone to dispute your position. You will have both greenies and rednecks both agreeing with you and the pollitions will find it hard to say no as it is all low cost.
I would like to see some longer term planning started. I would suggest by starting with research/ study commissioned by the government into the most healthy level of croc population. The level where they don't fall back into the endangered level, but do not deplete fish stocks (once all the feral animals are gone haha). A level that keeps the balance between predictor and pray. Once this has been done options can be looked at not culling them but harvesting them. They can be quite a pressious resource.
Why wait for nature to take its course and have food levels (the barra, another valuable resource worth protecting) deplete right down, then have these resources eat each other and have numbers dwindle until thing balance back out.

Also, another solution could be if the boffins can genetically modify some crocs that only eat only p o w e r t a i l. That we can over time replace the whole croc population with these powertail eating machines and they will leave our barra and fellow humans along. And the tourest can still go goo gaa over them. Win win win.I don't mean to make light of a serious topic, but it is nice to ream.

I also think there should be a better education program as to when a fisho should report possible problem crocs. Whilst fishing at shady camp in my 4.8m boat with my 3 small kids and small wife up at the first barage. We had a 5m plus croc start to stalk us and get closer and closser, popping up all sides of the boat. It freaked me out, it didn't seem too keen for us to be there and I was out of there. But I didn't report it, I didn't take and videos of this behaviour. at the time I didn't think it was doing too much wrong, but in hind-site I probably should have. It was showing aggressive behaviour towards my boat. I would have not liked to have been there in a smaller boat. who knows what could have or may still happened.
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Re: Crocodile Management

Post by mickkk »

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Re: Crocodile Management

Post by ghound »

Small world Aaron, Jimmy Here


Not to many people would be able to look at the problem as objectively as you if in the same situation. As you know I have been fishing up here my whole life ( a lot of the time with Scotty). Like Mickkk up until the death of your dad I always blamed human error when there was a fatality due to a Crocodile. My mantra always was if you stay out of the water you would be right. Even looking back with the benefit of hindsight there have been plenty of times I have put myself in harms way for no good reason other than to catch a bl..dy fish.

I must admit the last 14 months the wind has gone out of my sails a fair bit when it comes to fishing. It's tough to go anywhere that doesn't remind me of the good times I had fishing with our dad's. Also in the last 14 months I would hate to think how many times I have had the conversation about Crocodiles, and Like Mickkk says there is still a lot of misinformation out there about the circumstances. The truth be told you would go a long way to find a bloke that had more knowledge than Scotty and to say he was unlucky would be the biggest understatement of all time.

Like you the last thing I want to see is a wholesale culling by every Tom, Dick and Harry with a Gun license. For the life of me however I can't understand why the value of a trophy hunting industry is underestimated. The money made could flow back into the Aboriginal communities where it is most needed. A win win for everyone. I did note with interest in todays paper the continued rise of the Crocodile farms up here. I think this is also a good avenue for reducing numbers. As in collecting the eggs from wild nests before they become wild croc's is a good way to keep numbers down.

cheers
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Re: Crocodile Management

Post by Hemi »

I fully support a cull .
I fully support trophy hunting and the tourist dollars it'll bring in.


Respect & best wishes to you and your family mate, such a terrible tragedy.
Best of luck with the up coming inquiry.
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Re: Crocodile Management

Post by Matt Flynn »

Thanks for posting your thoughts on here Aaron. What happened to Bill could have happened to any Top End fisho.

What you say about the feral animal food source makes a lot of sense.

Re shooting crocs, I think there is a big difference between safari/trophy hunts and a cull.

If international hunters are willing to pay $30,000 or whatever to shoot a trophy croc under supervised guiding that is different from rednecks running amok with guns. Either way, if a croc is to be trapped it ends up removed from a waterway, or shot, the end result is the same from ecosystem point of view.

Some of the money raised could go into wildlife management.

Another bonus for the safari argument is that the Top End doesn't have any crocs called Cecil.
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Re: Crocodile Management

Post by bushie »

Matt why do you say rednecks? Why not just fill tags the same as deer hunting in Tassie . Easy to do. Does not make you a red neck.
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Re: Crocodile Management

Post by Rug »

I don't support the safari hunting idea and if a cull is the way to go I would like it to be done by pros who can do the job discretely and humanely. I also want good science and traditional knowledge to work this issue out and we have the worlds most regarded crocodile experts here.

I think the feral animal theory has a lot of merit.

Sorry about your Dad.
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Re: Crocodile Management

Post by cuddlescooper »

Rug wrote:I don't support the safari hunting idea and if a cull is the way to go I would like it to be done by pros who can do the job discretely and humanely. I also want good science and traditional knowledge to work this issue out and we have the worlds most regarded crocodile experts here.

I think the feral animal theory has a lot of merit.

Sorry about your Dad.
Why don't you support a safari Hunt? I am sure it will be monitored extremely closely and the appropriate training and testing would have to be completed before licences are issued. It fits right in with putting some revenue back through the communities and possibly the whole city of Darwin in the tourism vein. It can only be a win win for the Territory cant it???
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Re: Crocodile Management

Post by nomad »

Thanks for presenting a well thought-out reply in such difficult circumstances.
My condolences go to you, your family and friends.
I’ve only been in the Top End for 10 or so years and I remember the tv news making a big deal of the magic number of 100 crocs being trapped in a year. Now it’s up near 300 every year.
Your grief will again be tested when you attend the coroner’s inquest. (I’ve been to many inquests in my time and Greg Cavanagh does things very differently to elsewhere and goes out of his way to put you at ease). Coroners have the ability to make rulings, but unfortunately they aren’t binding decisions. Even so, your submission is well thought out and will assist him to make a good decision.
You make some really valid points.
Anyone who has had anything to do with ‘safari’ camps will know the clientele are less than perfect when it comes to accuracy and ethics. They have paid their $$ and expect to bag a trophy no matter the circumstances. Most safaris are related to ferals and browsing pest species.
The Tassie deer controls are aimed at keeping the population at a sustainable peek and with good quality of stocks.

I’ve been against a comprehensive cull but like any thinking person, I am open to a good discussion that may change that view. Wiping them out is just plain wrong as is anything that alters the balance of nature
My personal opinion is that these animals are capable of learning things. That’s how they have survived at the top of the food chain for so long.
If you kill the dominant animal it will never learn anything. Yes it is out of the system but another one will take its place in the hierarchy and will have the same Tendencies to hunt us.
But if we can somehow make them frightened of US, I reckon that instead of targeting us, they will move away and be less likely to hunt us.
If each of us is able to scare the poop out of every animal we see, maybe we can change things. I’m not aware of anything currently legally available to us (shotgun launched bird bungers etc) that we could fire at them and give them a massive shock so they remember that we should be given a wide berth.
There must be something on the market that we can get our hands onto that would achieve this.

However, if a croc becomes a menace, then it should go asap.
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Re: Crocodile Management

Post by Matt Flynn »

Matt why do you say rednecks? Why not just fill tags the same as deer hunting in Tassie . Easy to do. Does not make you a red neck.
Agree, but there is a view among the public that allowing any sort of cull would result in "redneck problems". Seems to me that the "redneck problem" of crocs being shot indiscriminately is already happening.

I think shooters who bothered to get tags would do the right thing, and if a season was only a two-week season in, say, December/January there wouldn't be many people on the water anyway.

However a guided solution is more likely to gain acceptance and be legalised. Not sure it would control crocs adequately but it would be earning money instead of costing money.

Would be interesting to know what a big croc is worth to a croc farm vs what it would be worth to a hunting guide.
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Re: Crocodile Management

Post by 76Tourer »

Thanks everyone for their kind words, I'm now kind of excited/anxius to see how this inquiry thingo works.

Hopefully N.T News can pull their head in and not worry my poor old mum again before the inquiry, as the story they ran Tuesday was not accurate and a direct copy from Matt's tribute ... they could have at least let family know they were running the story so mum didn't get a shock seeing the promotional headline .
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Re: Crocodile Management

Post by Matt Flynn »

Story was almost a direct copy - the newspaper lifted the quotes from North Aust. Fishing & Outdoors Magazine and then wrote some of its own editorial, and in the process making it look like the magazine was wrong, eg saying the attack happened on the East Alligator River.

I was not asked by the newspaper if the story could be published, and was concerned to see the blazing headlines, as I tried to publish the magazine story with some sensitivity, while putting the facts out there, as was the family's wishes.

However, the NT News coverage will keep the crocodile danger in people's minds, which is important.
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Re: Crocodile Management

Post by NofishNT »

76 Tourer,

My thoughts mirrors those above, your objectivity is inspirational especially with something so personal.

I believe you are right that the most likely approach is ‘risk management’ of principles that widely accepted; Elimination, Substitution, Engineering, Isolation & PPE. Why wouldn’t it be. There is risk and there are matrices to guide mitigation.

I would like to add to your suggestions as I think some possible solutions have been missed within these topics that could and should be explored. It should be noted I am no expert but offer my opinion and thoughts for others to consider.

I find it odd that the ‘experts’ are ignoring the hierarchy of control and using only the less effective methods than could otherwise be implemented;

Image

Elimination
Don’t exclude ‘Elimination’, I don’t think this was meant to be read literally as the example shows ‘Design it out’. As an example if you were attempting to eliminate hazards for employees working at a height of 4 metres and you could move the work height to 1 or 2 metres about the ground you substantially remove the risk of serious injury. Rather than cull all crocodiles you could substantially reduce the crocodile population/density which would in turn reduce the possibility of attack.

Substitution
Substitution is also a possibility. The biggest threat with an attack is not the crocodile, but more so the size of the crocodile (as you state 'large crocodile'). The bigger they are the more likely they are to cause death/serious injury and I submit the more cunning and capable they are. Should we explore substituting the bigger crocs with smaller ones?

Engineering
Isolation and guarding can be done somewhat by restricting people from areas habited by crocodiles. I would not restrict this to just zoos. There are a number of areas (read extensive) that are not generally accessible by the majority of the population; parts of National Park, Conservation Reserves etc.

Administration Controls
As you indicate this is done by signage and the ‘Croc Wise’ education campaign. This is where the focus of Crocodile management lies and the second most least effective method! The reason this is not very effective is because we a humans, we make mistakes and there should be controls in place before this is needed.

PPE
Well, I’m not going to try out croc rails on my boat or a croc resistant suit when I go fishing. As it suggests is the least effective method.

Before I move on from this topic, I am not sure where relocation comes in, but what a ridiculous idea! This is not a solution to anything. Imagine if the police relocated criminals. Let’s move them from the populated area of Darwin and moved them to Jabiru or Alice Springs. Hell, let’s all chip in for a bus ticket to send the rapist to Broome. Really!

I’m not convinced that the food source is the primary cause. If crocs are well fed, I would think they wouldn’t need to attack, however the food source does become an issue when the animals are competing for a food. If they are hungry they will take more risk with catching prey. To combat this I would suggest that you either increase the food source or reduce the predator numbers to equalise the disparity.

If it’s not obvious by now, I am for culling the croc numbers. I’m not suggesting cull them to extinction, but if you reduce the number of crocs, you reduce the probability of attack. It has been proven that they can regenerate after almost being decimated. Between 1971 and 1980 the numbers increased from about 4,000 to 30,000 (Webb et al 1984). At this point in a period of 12 months a series of fatal and non-fatal croc attacks occurred. I call this a clue.

It is believed that the crocodile population is what is was before 1945 when the croc skin trade took hold and decimation began. Yet there is no plan in place to take action and the human population has increased significantly.

I believe there is a balance between sustainability, economic benefit and safety, but I don’t think we are close to achieving this. The government state it is too expensive to just cull crocodile, however I submit it shouldn’t cost the tax payer any significant amount, in fact it could be a revenue. You could issue permits for businesses to take a large portion of the crocodile population on a per year basis. As long as it is sustainable where is the issue? They can sell the meat, skins, skulls. I don’t have an issue with a small number of safari/trophy kills either, but I don’t think this is an effective method of controlling the croc population. This is solely a tourism source of income with flow-on effects to the economy. I don't agree with letting the population loose on crocs. It should be done by people with experience to dispatch them humanely and with the best use of the carcass afterwards.

There is modelling done on the croc population

http://www.environment.gov.au/system/fi ... rogram.pdf

However, I believe there are flaws with this modelling. There are 12 tidal rivers that the density is measured by spotlight patrol. Many of these rivers are where crocodile management is in place, i.e. egg and croc harvesting. The modelling is suitable for the purpose of general crocodile management but not effective in determining accurate crocodile populations. Crocodiles will continue to find areas to populate if an area is too densely populated. This is obvious when you look at the number of crocodile removed from the Darwin Management area;

Year Crocs
1998/99 112
2003/04 222
2007/08 204
2011/12 301
2014/15 272

The program commenced in 98/99, shouldn’t you catch more in the first year and gradually reduce? This is a fair indicator that the population in increasing.

I submit the population is larger than their estimate.

On another note, people and the croc wise campaign continually refer the crocodile as the 'apex predator'. This, IMO, is wrong, we are. Remember we nearly decimated them.

I really hope something is done.

Good luck :cheers:
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Re: Crocodile Management

Post by cuddlescooper »

You brought up a lot of good points there NofishNT. I agree entirely with the food source point. If we take the food source away in my opinion its gonna increase attacks not limit them! If we take the food source away we also have to take the croc numbers down to an equal number IMO. Taking the food source out probably will eventually lower numbers in the very long run but what collateral damage comes out of it first! Crocs can go a year or more with out eating so by lowering food numbers isn't gonna drop the population over night. It will just put a lot of hungry crocodiles in the system!

I don't agree how ever with limiting access to people to these areas. If I choose to take the risk to go fishing in these billabongs like I have been my entire life well that should be my choice! I don't see why other people should have the right to stop me! Thousands of people each year wish to access these places. I don't see why they should be limited when they can still go to the Mary River system where there are probably double the numbers of crocs. Are we gonna stop everyone from fishing there? Are we gonna stop people fishing the Adelaide? This is not the solution.

I to am all for a cull in numbers and it was a good example of the increase in numbers of crocodiles removed from the greater Darwin area. I would suggest that the effort to catch them however has also increased greatly as well from the initial trapping program, with more traps and surveys ect but the increase is still a large percentage. We have to also take into account that in the area out of Darwin there has been no take of crocodiles so the percentage increase would be multipied again.
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